If Manny was juicing in Boston, are Red Sox championships tainted?
When you put aside the notion that he cheated the game of baseball for his own personal gain, what most people are generally upset about in regards to Barry Bonds and steroids is that he broke Hank Aaron’s home run record. Not only was he allegedly juicing, but in doing so, he also broke one of the most sacred records in all of baseball and most are calling for his name to be scratched from the record books.
In the wake of Manny Ramirez’s 50-game suspension, there’s another topic that should be broached, similar to Bonds’ home run record. Considering Manny hit cleanup for the Red Sox’ two championship teams this decade and also won MVP of Boston’s World Series sweep of the Cardinals in 2004, should the BoSox’ titles be considered tainted if Ramirez was on steroids?
To get the semantics out of the way first, no, Manny didn’t test positive for steroids. He only tested positive for a women’s fertility drug that is often used by athletes and bodybuilders to restore testosterone levels after steroid cycles. To be fair, Ramirez has never tested positive for steroids and therefore anything linking him to PEDs should be considered speculation.
However, if we’re truly being fair, Bonds never tested positive for steroids either. Yet, because his head grew to the size of a small watermelon and his physique went from Bruce Banner to the Incredible Hulk over the course of only a couple of years, it’s safe to say that Bonds was on some kind of human growth hormone and therefore his accomplishments should be questioned and criticized.
And so should the Red Sox’s two World Series titles.
Considering baseball is a team game, some people are going to argue that this Red Sox-tainted World Series topic is nonsense. But we’re not talking about the bullpen catcher taking steroids – we’re talking about the clean up hitter who just so happened to be an integral piece in a team winning two championships.
If all else is equal, then we should question the two Red Sox titles in the same breath as we criticize Bonds’ home run record. Bonds (possibly) cheated in order to attain the Holy Grail of personal accomplishments, while Manny (possibly) cheated in order to attain the Holy Grail of team accomplishments. When you consider that Bonds’ record could someday be broken, but the two Red Sox titles can never be stripped away from them, which dastardly deed was worse?
Don’t get it twisted – this isn’t my plea for the two Red Sox championships to be stricken from the record books. Baseball is a team game and it took 24-plus other players to help Boston win its two World Series titles (as opposed to one super-juiced Barry Bonds to break Hammerin’ Hank’s record). But if the accomplishments of once-thought-to-be Hall of Famers are now in question (i.e. Bonds’ home run record), then why can’t the accomplishments of certain teams be in question as well?
Bonds and the Giants were six outs away from winning a World Series in 2002. In that series (which San Fran inevitably lost to the Angels in seven games), Bonds hit four home runs and had the Giants won, there’s a very good chance that he would have been MVP. If the Giants did win and he took home the MVP award, fans would be screaming about a tainted World Series title because Bonds is the ultimate poster child for steroids in baseball. Sports writers everywhere wouldn’t have been able to utter the words “Giants World Series victory” without fans slamming it because of Bonds’ involvement with steroids and you can’t convince me otherwise.
So why isn’t anyone screaming about two tainted World Series titles for Boston?
To be fair so it doesn’t seem like I’m singling out only Boston, one could argue that the Yankees’ World Series titles in 1999 and 2000 should also be questioned. At least three of their pitchers (Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens and Jason Grimsley) have either been implicated, admitted or accused of taking PEDs, so fans could easily apply the tainted tag to their titles, too. (Pettitte was also on the team when they won in 1998.)
And before anyone compares the value of a starting pitcher to a cleanup hitter, don’t forget the impact a pitcher can have in a seven game series in the Fall Classic considering they pitch on only three days rest instead of four like the regular season.
The sad thing is, no matter what side of the fence you’re on in this debate, it’s one that will likely grow if/when more players are suspended. What if Albert Pujols tests positive for PEDs? The Cardinals won in 2006. How about Ryan Howard? The Phillies won in 2008. We could speculate about every slugger on every World Series-winning team in the “steroid era” until we’re blue in the face.
But the overall point is, we’re often so quick to judge Bonds and his achievements (and you could group Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro and every other juicer together too for what they accomplished in baseball’s record books), yet it seems like we’re willing to give teams a pass.
Why?
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Posted in: MLB
Tags: Albert Pujols, Barry Bonds, Barry Bonds Manny Ramirez, Barry Bonds steroids, Boston Red Sox, Manny Ramirez, Manny Ramirez 50 game suspension, Manny Ramirez steroids, Manny Ramirez suspension, New York Yankees, Roger Clemens, Roger Clemens steroids, Ryan Howard, San Francisco Giants
No, he was only doing this since joining L.A
Clean as a whistle in Boston. Trust me.
One can make a strong argument that Boston’s wins are now tainted. Also, let’s see how things play out with Big Papi – if he ever gets busted then they really have a problem.
As you alluded to, Anthony, this is a slippery slope. If Manny was using in Boston (and it’s certainly not a stretch to think that he was), it’s tempting to say the two WS titles are tainted. The problem is, there are probably all sorts of WS championship teams that had key players who used some sort of PED’s throughout the steroids era. So while the legitimacy of the Sox championships is an easy story in the wake of Manny’s suspension, their two titles wouldn’t be any more “tainted” in my eyes than any other teams that fielded users during championship seasons.
If that list of 107 names (or whatever the hell the number is) is ever fully disclosed, we’ll be calling all sorts of titles, records and statistics into question.
Lets try this topic next or instead:
“If Sheffield,Giambi,Pettitte,Clemens,A-Rod and who knows who else were caught,accused, or admitted for taking PED’s = are the yankee wins tainted ?”
This seems like an article written by yankee fans to try to get their hated rivals to join them in sharing some misery.They would love to have the Red Sox become the yankee Jr’s … but it’s about 100-1 and thats if Manny did anything as a Red Sox.
If the Red Sox wins are tainted because of Manny – well then the 100 or so that went through the Torre regime should be 100 times worse shouldn’t it ?
Maybe the Red Sox should be given a little credit from Theo & Co. for getting rid of some players at the right time ? Nomar,Johnny Demon,Pedro,Manny ?
Manny is a Dodger.
Before this turns into another Yankees-Red Sox debate, this is the crux of the article:
But if the accomplishments of once-thought-to-be Hall of Famers are now in question (i.e. Bonds’ home run record), then why can’t the accomplishments of certain teams be in question as well?
I’m neither a Yankee nor a Red Sox fan. Just throwing the topic out there.
“You’re just jealous.” “You’re a (insert team name here) hater, because you love (insert rival team name here).” Man, I’m telling you, I’m really starting to hate the internet.
The tricky part to this is that even if Manny was using ‘riods when they won their titles, odds are he wasn’t alone, which is why you are not going to hear a peep from any Red Sox players on the subject. They may hate him, but there is still a code of silence in effect when it comes to steroids. That goes for the owners, too.
To answer your question, Anthony, I think you have to view all titles from the last 15 years with some amount of suspicion. It’s sad, but I think it would be foolish to assume that everyone is suddenly playing by the rules.
AS…excellent article and great points! If Bud the Slug wants to deter PED usage, put some teeth into the penalty. If a player is found to be using PED’s, he forfeits any indvidual awards and his team forfeits a championship if they win. You get a one year ban the first time, lifetime ban the second, no exceptions. Put the responsibility back on the players. If you cheat, you cheat knowing the consequences. How would you like to be the guy that has to face your organization if you got caught and your team has to give up a ring? There were 13 MVP’s and 3 Cy Youngs won since 1988 by guys either suspected or known to have been using performance enhancers. That’s a lot of contract money that would have been lost if the league had any balls. And that’s 16 guys who may have been clean that got screwed out of more money for these individual achievements.
If everyone wants Bonds’ records taken away, then YES, IF Manny was using in Boston from 2004-2007, the championships are tainted. That was the first thing the “Nation” was saying about the Yankees when the story broke about Clemens. Just because Manny dumped the Redsox last year doesn’t mean they’re clean if they find evidence he used back then. We don’t have one set of rules for the Redsox and one for everybody else. It is what it is.
Bay44…I forget…when did the Yankees win with Giambi, Sheff, and A-Hole? Did I miss a season or something?
I am sick and tired of hearing how Bonds “never tested positive for steroids.” Who cares? HE ADMITTED USING STEROIDS! He admitted using designer roids The Cream and The Clear (designed to avoid existing testing methods of the day) so there is NO DISPUTE he was using ‘roids during his playing days. While Bonds offered a ridiculous excuse for using them (that he didn’t know they were steroids), the record is clear that he used them.
If you haven’t read the book GAME OF SHADOWS chronicling the mountains of evidence of his steroid use, you have no business calling yourself a journalist or writing about sports.
While there is a mountain of evidence that Bonds used ‘roids while compiling his personal achievements (including his own admissions), there is no evidence that I’m aware of that Ramirez used them (or a female fertility drug used to mask their use) while a member of the Boston Red Sox, let alone during their World Series Championship runs.
If you want to assume or speculate that he did, you can do so, but rank speculation or unfounded assumption is not journalism and does not implicate the BoSox’s World Series Championships. Your article is not based upon facts and constitutes the type of amateurish approach and assumptions more typically found from AM radio callers (not hosts).
Wow…you’re not allowed to comment on hypotheticals in sports? Somebody please call ESPN because those “amateurs” do it all the time. Hell, they even did a month long segment on which team would win an imaginary tournament of superbowl winners. I don’t care that those “amateurs” invented the sports entertainment medium…just tell them GTSS said it’s not real journalism. They’ll understand.
Cut down on the Monster and Red Bull, dude…most of what anyone talks about regarding sports begins with “what if”.
GTSS! and GTSS PT. II,
I must have missed the part where I claim to be Bob Ryan working for the Boston Globe. Look at the forum in which you’ve posted your comments – it’s a sports blog. I don’t pretend to be a journalist – this is all my opinion.
I’m taking what we know (Manny was suspended for testing positive for a PED) and speculating about what we don’t know (whether or not he used in Boston) to raise a question: IF Manny was juicing in Boston, are the Red Sox championships tainted?
It’s a topic of debate and considering Manny was busted for taking a PED often used to mask the use of steroids, it’s a valid topic. If you actually had read the article instead of getting all worked up after reading the title, you would have been able to decode that I’m raising a question, not stating a fact. I don’t say: THE RED SOX CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE TAINTED!!! I’m proposing a question in which clearly, others are interested in debating.
I’ve never seen somebody piss into the wind as much as you just did.
This sums up sports today….a udying stance for ones team while hatred rages on against those that don’t agree.
We don’t take the time to read anything, yet feel the need to comment.
However, the noted article stands on it’s own and the question is now out there because Manny played such a key role during the Boston years.
This is not stopping, the League doesn’t know how to stop it, Congress was joke with Clemons and next week we will be talking about Ortiz’s lack of power now that Manny has left.
Anyone want to make a bet on this?
Pettite never took steroids before 2002 and Mcnamee would have said so if Pettitte did.Also Clemens effects 2000 but didn’t pitch well in 1999 and Jeter was the MVP in 2000 not Clemens.Also Grimsley is to the Yankees what Eric Gagne is the the Red Sox in 07.
Manny was there best player during the 04,07 series in the regular and post season unlike Pedr Martinez.Red Sox fan know Manny took PEDS before 09 there in denial.And steroids is like HGH there both PEDS.Even if Manny didn’t take steroids it’s the same thing…..illegal.
If Manny was juicing in Boston, then yes, their championships are tainted. I’m a Sox fan and I would still agree that that’s a pretty reasonable argument. The thing is, we don’t know if he was, so we can’t start having any kind of debate on it.
It’s a tough call, because it is likely every WS winner in the past 15 years has had a juicer on the team, but you make a good point that Manny wasn’t just another player – he was the cleanup hitter and MVP of the 2004 World Series. That year the Sox swept the St. Louis Cardinals, who had to play the Series without their best pitcher, Chris Carpenter, due to injury. If the Sox had to play that series, or the one before against New York, without Manny, would the results have been different? Maybe. Probably. That’s the taint.
I have to agree with Red Sox fans who feel cheated, tainted and saddened by this news….Manny being Manny is now not funnt at all
I agree with you T-Bone for the most part – about PED’s and how they are handled.It’s a mess – and really, how do we judge this ?
But, I will say – the yanks beat Boston plenty of times since all those guys I mentioned played. Remember 2003 when you beat Boston by one pitch ? A F Boone ? They may have not won championships but they won a crapload of games and at least kept others out of the race.
I don’t want to make this a yankee-Red Sox thing either ….. but the article asks is Bostons Championships tainted ? First of all we don’t know what Manny did when and where – lets let it pan out.Lets see if he even did anything while in Boston. I think a lot of anti Red Sox people need to look in the mirror before they jump on the first (almost) Red Sox and question them about their titles. I mention the yankees because they have had the most (accused and admitted) by a large margin, over any other team in the League. Right ?
And one question: How many N Y players served any penalties at all ? Some even admitted doing the PED’s ??? It’s ok right Bud Selig ?
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The key is, this issue is not limited to one player, or one team.
No, it does not taint anything. As a recent sportswriter put it, my 9 guys on steroids beat your 9 guys on steroids.
The list had 104 player on it, remember. Does anybody really think only those 104 are taking something?
Anthony,
Absolutely, it’s fair to bring up the question. I’ve always wondered why no one ever asks how screwed the Cards from ’02 must feel now, having to play the Giants in the NLCS. And as a Cubs fan, my reaction to that sweep the Dodgers laid on my boys last year is a lot different now than it was at the time.
However, personally, I don’t know that it’s very productive to retroactively strike accomplishments from the records because they were gained unfairly. This goes both for individual and team accomplishments. I understand that the NCAA has such policies in place, so there’s obviously a precedent for it in sports. It doesn’t, however, change what actually happened. The BBWAA isn’t going to strip Bonds of his MVP Awards and give them to the runners-up. Moreover, the use of performance enhancers throughout baseball’s history – from the 19th century to now – makes me think that if we’re only now beginning to care about it, we have no business altering the records from the “Steroid Era” while leaving those of, say, Jim Bouton’s era untouched.
There’s another problem here, in that Boston’s World Series titles were season-long accomplishments. Bonds’ home run record was a career accomplishment. When he was found to have used drugs late in his career, it was fair to question those accomplishments that took his whole career to achieve. For Boston’s championships to actually be tainted, I think we have to have some kind of evidence that one or more of their players actually used during that time. For them to be tainted by Ramirez’ drug use two years later seems to me not very logical. It doesn’t necessarily follow that he was using in ’04 or ’07.
To answer the lead question, IF Manny used drugs in Boston, then, yes, Boston’s championships are marred. But right now we don’t know enough to make any conclusions about that “IF”.
If Sheffield,Giambi,Pettitte,Clemens,A-Rod and who knows who else were caught,accused, or admitted for taking PED’s = are the yankee wins tainted ?”
UMMMMMM absolutely not. Steroids were not banned in baseball until 2002. Last I checked the Yankees have not won since 2000. Sure they were illegal to use by statute but not major league baseball.
If were are going to claim anyone who broke the law should have their teams records tainted lets include domestic violence, drunk driving, and all statutes.
The fact is the Yankees have not won a world series since steroids were banned PERIOD. The Sox won 2 with tainted players.
94by50 – that was a well-thought out comment and I think you did a nice job summing up the entire topic.
Good job 94by50.
Jimmy – Roids were illegal back then. That IS an issue. Being drunk or violent doesn’t make you a better player – but roids do. Bud was sleeping and so,the yankee gang is so far, proven to be the most tainted team – by a longshot.They didn’t win any championships because their organization isn’t too bright….. but they HAD the most roids. Thats the facts as of today.
Till this point. I don’t know of any dirty Red Sox. I know you are hoping for it … but. Manny is a Dodger. We don’t know what he did in Boston or do you ?
Bay, They were illegal to posess there was no law about injesting them or shooting them. Much the same way as it is illegal to posess heroin but not illegal to be high on heroin.
The only law broken was state/federal law not the rules of baseball as they existed prior to 2002. Baseball players used greenies and amphetamines before steriods were available but those were not against the rules of baseball either.
Please don’t be so naive to believe that Manny never used with the red sox. If he did or did not is something he knows and will probably never admit to. IF he did, which is what this article proposes, the red sox world series wins WOULD be tainted.
What happened prior to the rule change has no impact on the world series of 1996,1998,1999, and 2000. As I stated they were not against the rules of baseball, there was no testing and for all we know 90% of players could have been using.
Oh Bay, don’t let this little tidbit get you down. Former Boston Red Sox player and current analyst and reporter for Comcast SportsNet New England, Lou Merloni, claimed last week that Sox management taught players how to use steroids during his tenure with the team.
So far when a PLAYER has come out with steroid allegations they have been 100% correct. Merloni has no reason to lie about such a metting.
I have not heard similar allegations regarding the Yankees. Not to mention the biased report by Mitchell who happens to be a Red sox executive.
Bay44, I am back. Now that at least 2 of your “clean” redsox have been implicated in PED’s the 04 and 07 championships are tainted.
2.5 months later I am still laughing that you didn’t think Manny was juicing in Boston.
The truth will set you free.
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