Let the revisionist history begin…
Tim Legler was on SportsCenter giving his take on the series:
“…really were only seriously challenged in one series, the Houston Rockets, who surprisingly took them to a seventh game. They did it with relative ease.”
Really? So one Orlando win and two Laker wins in OVERTIME isn’t a serious challenge?
I wrote the following last night after the game…
Unfortunately for the Magic, the competitiveness of these Finals is going to fade as time goes on. The Lakers’ ability to clinch in five games seems dominant on paper and people are going to forget that if not for two plays — Courtney Lee’s missed alley-oop in Game 2 and Jameer Nelson’s failure to contest Derek Fisher’s game-tying three in Game 4 — this series easily could have gone into Game 5 with the Magic leading, 3-1. But by losing tonight the way they did, most people are going to forget how evenly matched these two teams were.
…but I had no idea that the revisionist history would start so quickly.
Then there was Magic Johnson, talking about Kobe:
“Kobe proved all the doubters wrong and all the Kobe haters wrong.”
While he certainly proved those that doubted his ability to lead a team to an NBA championship to be wrong, how exactly do you prove a “hater” wrong? The New England Patriots have a lot of haters, but how does a Super Bowl win prove them wrong? The same goes for Duke or the Yankees. People don’t hate those teams because they can’t win a title, they hate them for reasons that are intrinsic to the franchise or program.
For Kobe, it is his insular, “above-it-all” personality early in his career, the perception that he ran Shaq out of town, the way he acts/acted towards his teammates, the alleged rape in Colorado, the $4 million dollar ring he bought for his wife so she’d forgive him for the alleged rape/cheating, and the carefully constructed public relations campaign we’ve been subjected to over the last few years.
Oh, and of course, there’s this face.
Kobe haters didn’t think that he couldn’t win a title, they just think he’s a dick. How does last night’s win against the Magic prove them wrong?
Posted in: NBA, NBA Finals
Tags: Kobe Bryant, Kobe Bryant hater, Kobe Bryant haters, Los Angeles Lakers, Magic Johnson, Tim Legler
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You are bang on. Kobe tries too hard to be so Un-Kobe-ish. Everybody is always putting this guy on a pedestal. He IS a great player- but beyong that-he’s not a great leader or a great human being!
Hey John, cool piece. I agree with your main point, which is that there will always be Kobe haters and there will always be Kobe haters because of a, b, c, etc.
Still, I think if Kobe had spent his career playing for a smaller market team and breathed life into a franchise such as Cleveland or Orlando, basketball fans around America would have come around to him by now. The fact that he plays for a winning team in L.A. is an immediate negative, just because that’s the way fans work. We hate the Yankees because they win all the time and spend horrendous amounts of money to make it happen. People hate the Lakers because they win all the time, play in L.A., have celebrities at all their games, and stop at nothing to get the best people at what they do (Phil Jackson, Kobe). They’re easy to hate, and this, in turn, makes Kobe easy to hate. Now for those other reasons…
Wait, before I get into this, I want to stress that I completely agree with you why people dislike the guy. I just think it’s unjustified at this point in his career for those reasons listed above. Even if there was a devised “campaign” to change his image, what other choice does he have? Nobody knows how he actually is, but if the perception about me was that I was I dick, and I actually cared to change that image, I would hire people to make that happen. Sad as it is, it’s something you have to do when you’re a celebrity. You can be a good person day to day, but to have these “deeds” noticed, you need a good PR crew. Oh, and you can’t ever screw up.
1. I don’t exactly know what you mean by an “above-it-all” personality early in his career. Do you mean how he acted on the court, by questioning calls, how he acted towards other players, etc? I remember watching Kobe growing up, and his behavior early on can’t be as different as some of today’s younger stars. Still, somebody’s cocky persona eight years ago in the NBA shouldn’t effect how they’re viewed today. It was a different league back then and from what I can tell, Kobe is respected and liked by other players around the league, excluding Shaqovic.
2. Do people in parts of the country other than L.A. really care that he supposedly ran Shaq out of town? From an unbiased standpoint, Shaq has a more poisonous personality than Kobe, constantly running his mouth about players, coaches, David Stern, and officiating. Kobe actually keeps pretty mum. Even if Kobe got his way and Shaq got the boot, why would other fans care about that at all? The perception about Shaq should be just as a negative, and I think Shaq’s actions (cheating on his wife, criticizing colleagues, playing dirty, jumping from hot team to hot team) negate him from effecting Kobe’s already polarizing persona. Remember, Shaq’s the one who continues to fuel this “fued,” not Kobe. My point is, people don’t either “love Shaq” and “hate Kobe” or vice versa.
3. I don’t ever recall the issue of how Kobe “acts toward his teammates” until Shaq left. He’s out there firing them up, giving them instructions, and running the floor. And they won the championship. As far as I’m concerned, it takes a demonstrative leader like that to win, and if I’m Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Derrick Fisher, or even Phil Jackson, that’s the type of guy I want out there. You didn’t see that sort of maniac dictation by LeBron or Dwight and they couldn’t come through. The games I’m watching, Kobe’s teammates seem fully fixated on listening to him. You don’t see anybody rolling their eyes or ignoring him. They’re completely with him. They can see how badly he wants to win and that, in turn, is a demonstration of what they’re mindset should be. He’s a great leader. They won under his leadership, so people’s perceptions should be that his attitude toward his teammates helped the Lakers win a championship. I don’t know why that would be a negative for Kobe. When Bynum went down, yes, it was a disappointment in Kobe’s eyes, because he wants to win. There’s no saying that he doesn’t care for Bynum, and he didn’t call him or visit him as both a teammate and FRIEND. The two shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. Nobody plays on a professional team to make friends, they play to win championships. If my top center went down, my first reaction would be “Oh God, I hope he’s OK because I like him so much.” It would be, “God dammit, we’re going to be screwed for the next few weeks.” I think LeBron would feel the same way if Mo Williams experienced a rough injury. When you dislike a basketball player, you see what you want to see in their facial expressions and actions on the court. And even if that face was, “Dammit, we have to play Mbenga,” is that really that selfish? I wouldn’t want to have to play Mbenga.
3. An alleged rape. You’re Kobe Bryant, the most powerful basketball player in the game, and you’re in Colorado of all places. You can get any gril who is even slightly familiar with basketball whenever you want, but this girl must have been “so beautiful” that you’re going to try to rape her. I don’t think so. Kobe may not be the brightest, but even at his age back then he was old enough to know raping a girl wouldn’t boost his public image. And that woman might have seen an opportunity to make a buck. And that’s pretty much what happened if I remember correctly. The charges were dropped, she got some money, and Kobe was never convicted for anything. Obviously, if I’m living somewhere other than L.A. I’m to hate Kobe for event his “conviction.” Still, it’s years later and he was proven innocent and given the amount of evidence and the fact that Kobe has no reason to force this girl to have sex with him, it’s time to not let it affect your opinion of Bryant. He was proven innocent, and in the world of Hollywood and professional sports, what we hear from the media is how we’re going to cultivate our opinions.
4. He bought a $4 million ring for his wife. Who cares? He can afford it and in these days of celebrities and money what other way to prove to the public that you’re going to remain faithful to your wife than by renewing your vows and buying her some expensive bling. If he did nothing, and just lived at home and remained faithful to his wife and was the model husband would public perception change about him? Of course it wouldn’t, because that wouldn’t make the news. Will buying a ring help? Of course not. Will anything help stress that Kobe loves his wife? Hell no. Basketball players seem to be the biggest “players” of all. So, whether it’s D-Wayde’s sex parties, Jason Kidd’s leaving them high and dry, or Shaq’s dirty work, they’re all scum bags. Kobe shouldn’t get the shaft because he’s trying (albeit lavishly) to show the public that he’s turned a new leaf. Take any franchise player from a team, and he’s probably trying to get with your girlfriend as we speak.
5. The carefully constructed public relations campaign. I spoke about it above, but the fact is, all athletes are involved in some sort of crafting of their public image. Remember, Kobe’s gotten older too, and with that must come some wisdom. Whether or not he’s banging at the door to help this organization or that one is not the issue, the point is he’s trying to make people like him. When people hate you, you either shut down, take the Dennis Rodman root and bask in it, or you genuinely are affected by it and make an effort to sway the public. You watch Kobe in his interviews and not only does he seem like an alright guy, but he seems at ease with being an alright guy. He’s not the young hotshot he was anymore. He’s a veteran and I think he’s grown wise enough to know that it’s not worth trying to be a badass who doesn’t need anybody. You need to prove your worth out their on the court within an organization, and he did it in stride. When you look at the drama surrounding other franchise or star players this year, I think Kobe actually came out the better human being than most of these other guys. I think that’s come naturally. He’s not so young anymore and has learned from his mistakes.
Again, all your points are well-founded on why people dislike the guy even in the wake of a relatively positive year for Kobe in terms of public and on-court actions.
Still, it’s a shame to be a Kobe hater when the justification for it involves actions that are either unproven, biased, or unavoidable.
I can’t possibly respond to all of your points (nor is it necessary, as I agree with many of them) but let me pull a few out and explain the hater position more fully…
Even if there was a devised “campaign” to change his image, what other choice does he have? Nobody knows how he actually is, but if the perception about me was that I was I dick, and I actually cared to change that image, I would hire people to make that happen.
I get your point, but it’s so carefully constructed and contrived that we never get a real picture of what he’s like. If the guy is a prick, I’d rather that he act like a prick instead of pretending to be this great guy that gets along with all of his teammates. Did you see “Kobe: Doin’ Work”? From a how-is-Kobe-on-the-court aspect, it was a joke. I’ve watched a hundred Laker games over the last three seasons and I’ve never seen him treat his teammates so nicely. Maybe he doesn’t have a choice but to go with a PR campaign, but it’s not genuine.
Do people in parts of the country other than L.A. really care that he supposedly ran Shaq out of town?
Absolutely. I was just talking with a buddy of mine from Wisconsin, where I grew up. We are both Bucks fans and were lamenting about how they haven’t been to the playoffs after going to the Eastern Conference Finals seemingly every year when we were growing up. Then the talk turned to Kobe and how it seemed like he ran Shaq out of town, squandering what — a shot at three or four more titles? Kobe said that Buss had decided not to re-sign Shaq, so maybe he didn’t run him out of town (or maybe Buss knew the two couldn’t co-exist, so Kobe was partly responsible), but when you’re fan of a franchise that hasn’t had success in years, the worst thing someone can do is squander a shot at a title because of personal differences. Granted, over time Shaq’s reputation has put Kobe in a slightly better light, but to the rest of the country, they’re still both idiots for letting a good thing go.
He’s out there firing them up, giving them instructions, and running the floor.
You have a selective memory. Prior to the Pau Gasol trade, Kobe often looked disgusted with his teammates. There were times when he wouldn’t talk to anyone because he was so frustrated with his situation. He threw Andrew Bynum under the bus one summer because they didn’t trade him for Jason Kidd. He demanded a trade prior to the team’s acquisition of Gasol. He definitely refined his leadership style this season, but up until this point, no one would ever…ever…describe him as a great leader. The guy is 30 years old and he deserves a pat on the back for finally “getting it”? Great. The rest of us figured out how to trust our teammates in high school.
Re: the alleged rape and $4 million dollar ring…prior to the Colorado incident, Kobe was known for never hanging out socially with teammates. The “above it all” attitude refers to this aloofness and the image he tried to portray that he was above all the NBA shenanigans and 100% happy in his marriage. He didn’t have the needs of mortal men. This is what I’m referring to. The ring is seen by non-Kobe apologists as a bribe for cheating on his wife. Kobe fans can call it whatever they like, but most people see that as a straight up bribe. (Google the definition of “Kobe ring” — click on the urban dictionary link.) Oh, and he lied to the cops too while simultaneously throwing Shaq under the bus in the process.
I don’t expect Kobe fans to understand. They will put all of his actions in the best possible light and forget all of the bad things he’s done. I’m not saying this is what you’re doing, but you’re painting a picture of this great player/team leader/husband, and the fact of the matter is that he might be the most hated player in the league. Everyone respects him as a player, but most fans I talk to (even those Laker fans I know) think he’s a total dick. Is this totally justified, given his improved attitude the last year and a half? Maybe not, but this reputation didn’t just appear out of thin air.
Thanks John for the response. I understand where you’re coming from. The thing is, with me and sports, I never care about “liking” a player based on their personality, especially franchise players. The amount of attention, money, and public scrutiny comes with the territory, I know, but that lifestyle is so far removed from the common man I just think it isn’t worth anyone’s time to “like” a guy like Michael Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, D-Wade, Howard, etc. The stuff all those guys probably do/did behind closed doors with women and their money is enough to not really “like” any of them. They all get my respect as a basketball fan, but I’ll never say I “like” any of those guys better than the next. We as a public get very qualified reports on star athletes. Sometimes they’re just someplace at the wrong time; sometimes they get away with stuff; sometimes they get blamed for stuff they didn’t do. My main point is that it’s a shame to be a Kobe-hater as I think it takes away from the joy of watching the best player of his generation.
Anyway, I just wanted to address your points while trying to compare them to other franchise players who don’t receive nearly as much fan-hatred as Kobe gets.
1. I actually don’t feel like we’ve been force fed this contrived “I’m Kobe, like me” campaign. Maybe it’s different in other places than California, but I don’t see how they would advertise “Kobe as role model” any differently in other states. All I’ve seen him do are those NBA Cares ads, but a bunch of basketball players do those. As for his “Doin’ Work” documentary, I didn’t see it. (I’d skip over a documentary on Jordan as well, and would rather have a cameraman follow Pau Gasol through a day in Spain.) Nevertheless, I don’t think Spike Lee would have cared about portraying Kobe in the “best possible light” because 1) that isn’t entertaining and 2) Spike Lee is supposed to be all about “being real.” Then again, maybe the documentary was boring as hell as Spike Lee is just a shill. I think Kobe’s mindset was more, “Oooh, they’re making a movie about me,” not “I have to be nice.”
2. I understand your point about Shaq and Kobe squandering the chances to win a championship. They are idiots for doing that, but I think it’s unfair to judge either of them when Jordan and LeBron’s egos are the same size. The difference with those guys are they never had to play with another franchise player at their young age, let alone in a high-pressure city like L.A. What that city does is creates gods out of its athletes. Jordan and LeBron literally brought basketball to Chicago and Cleveland – nobody had any expectations because those cities had never won a basketball championship, whereas the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, all have storied franchises. Jordan and LeBron are gods in their cities, but they didn’t have to deal with such an abrasive personality as Shaq. How would Jordan have reacted if Shaq came to town. How would LeBron act if he and Dwight Howard suddenly found themselves on a team, still in their early 20s, in a high- pressure city like New York. What I’m saying is, these other franchise players never had to deal with a situation such as Shaq/Kobe in L.A. in their 20s (and Kobe was in his early 20s). I think age matters coupled with the media in L.A. I point this out because Garnett, Allen, and PIerce seem to get along fine, but they’ve all matured enough and are old to know that it’s the championship that’s important. Neither of them knew what it felt like to be a 20 something year-old kid in the crazy city of L.A. and deal with the likes of Shaq. For that, I think Kobe deserves some slack.
3. I remember everything with Bynum and Kidd and don’t remember it being nearly as big a deal as you’re making it seem. He made some terse comments to some reporters at a grocery store in 2007 before he had every really played with Bynum. I wouldn’t call that “throwing your teammate under the bus” when Bynum wasn’t really even your teammate yet in the first place. The guy vouched for Jason Kidd over some unproven rookie. I don’t know, maybe we’re talking about different situations, but I would have done the same thing. He did demand a trade prior to the acquisition of Gasol, but we both agree that the goal is to win championships. If he’s dissatisfied with management and thinks he could win a championship somewhere else for more/less money, shouldn’t he voice his opinion?
Still, you’re totally correct in him being disgusted with his teammates. That is not good leadership. I know those games you’re referring too — I watched them as well and he did look straight up disappointed in his teammates at times. It’s a wrong decision as a leader to criticize your teammates or look at them in a way that makes them feel worthless. I agree with that. However, Kobe really only became a leader after Shaq left. Having only known success, I could understand his disgust with other players and disgust with himself for failing to get it done. Maybe, in that respect, Jordan is better. (Still, that will open a myriad of discussions of whether the level of play was better than it is now.) Jordan was able to win a championship as a leader before Kobe. Nevertheless, is LeBron as “leader” really that more respectful to his teammates than Kobe? Kobe has looked disgusted towards his teammates in the past, but is LeBron walking out after the Cavs losing to the Magic a good move as a leader? LeBron never gets much flak for his leaderships skill — and I stress leadership for this argument as opposed to player/media and player/opposing team ethics. Does anyone really think that LeBron said “it was a good season, guys” before he left the building in a huff with his headphones? I don’t think so. And isn’t all this flirtation with signing with New York a sign of poor leadership as well? Talk about throwing your teammates under a bus…then driving in it from Cleveland to New York. These are facts that people will forget about LeBron, but this same type of behavior sticks with people when they think about Kobe. Not really fair.
4. As for the Kobe Ring, you and I could both give a shit. We don’t know how their relationship works — how smart either of them are, how passionate they are about each other, what they do romantically, for fun, etc. All that junk is boring and private. You know Kobe maybe had some PR guy or agent going, “Keep the ring a secret, it’s going to look stupid.” But then maybe you had Kobe going, “But listen, she really is a materialistic woman who loves diamonds. I know it looks lame, but it’s what she goes gaga for.” Again, I don’t think anybody should judge the rich for the judgments they make in terms of a romantic crisis. I’ll never be rich, so I couldn’t say I wouldn’t buy a gigantic ring for my hot wife if I could afford it. That argument is moot.
I also don’t expect Kobe’s critics to understand. Personally, I don’t think he’s any better or worse characteristically than LeBron or Jordan. Kobe’s found himself at a young age in tough situations those guys never/might never experience(d). He’s matured and though it took him –albeit too long — to “get it,” we as fans should realize that he has the personality now to make it happen. LeBron has had a much easier road so far, and Jordan did as well.
Kobe may or may not legitimately be basketball’s all-time biggest douche, but based on the evidence, I don’t it’s worth anybody’s time to hate the guy as I feel the other franchise stars are no better characteristically.
I’m not sure what to tell you, Chris. You are painting Kobe’s actions in the best possible light, and that’s what Kobe apologists do.
The Bynum thing was a huge deal that summer, and Kobe had played with him, so he was his teammate. (“Ship his ass out.”) The Kobe Ring is such a joke that it has become a slang term to refer to bribing your wife to get over infidelity (this, after bribing the alleged rape victim to go away with a lot of money). LeBron never looks disgusted with his teammates like Kobe has/does, and while I agree that walking off the court without shaking hands is a big no-no, that doesn’t have anything to do with why people hate Kobe. If you don’t want to take my word on “Kobe: Doin’ Work” check out Bill Simmons’ review or some of the other reviews on the web. Spike Lee did not “keep it real.”
I once went round and round with a co-worker trying to convince him not to hate Duke and it was a fruitless effort. While I agree that Kobe may not be quite as bad as people think he is, he didn’t develop this reputation out of thin air.
While it can be fun debating hoops and even more enjoyable shredding someone’s feeble arguments to tiny bits like you just have,Chris, it really becomes a waste of time with such as Paulsen. Some people are so bitter and seem to take pleasure in ruining other people’s enjoyment. Instead of giving others credit when it is due the bottom of the barrel is scraped once more and hatred reigns. This is not to say Kobe is Nelson Mandela, he isn’t.Kobe is a flawed human being just like the rest of us.I think we should encourage others to become better people whether they are a friend or a complete stranger. It is through this that life for everyone becomes better.These venom laced tirades hurt actually you Paulsen more than Kobe and strays into the realm of hubris which can be a really dark place.I have been a Lakers fan since the mid 80′s and frankly was dissapointed with some of Kobe’s choice over the years. Truthfully, he isn’t even my favorite player on the Lakers. I think it is very important for us to root for others when it come to positive change and give credit when it is due.When we look in the sewers for our logic only the putrid stench remains.
“Venom laced tirades”? Give me a break.
What a shocker — a Kobe apologist chimes in with insults, not arguments.
Not a Kobe apologist, just someone not living in the intellectual gutter at this moment in time. Luke Skywalker had it right: “let go of your hate”.Unfortunately you are proving my point with your response.I hope you can break free from your negativity. Good luck, seriously.
The first step of rehab is admitting that you have a problem, Joe. When you’re ready, I’m here to help.
When your opponent is defeating himself then by all means step out the way. I will now do so.
Joe,
There was no need to try and make this personal. John and Chris were having a respectful, reasonable debate and you attacked John for having an opinion on something that quite frankly, a lot of people agree with him on. I also find it kind of ironic that you’re lecturing to “encourage others to become better people whether they are a friend or a complete stranger” and then you essentially take a pot shot at John for “being bitter and taking pleasure in ruining other people’s enjoyment” when that wasn’t what he was doing at all.
As an outsider, your comments read of that of a Laker fan upset at what John wrote, agreed with everything Chris said because he’s defending Kobe and then decided to make things personal. No matter how you want to spin it, John’s mission wasn’t to piss on the Lakers championship or bask in the mistakes Kobe has made.
Anthony,If you will reread my post I did say the word “seem” as in showing the appearance of, not necessarily a stone cold indictment of Paulsen’s words which did strike me as bitter due to his invoking of the alleged rape and ring angle which itself is an ad hominem approach not worthy of discussion between gentlemen. You are taking up for your guy and I respect that but Paulsen labeled me a “Kobe apologist” which is code for a mindless drone who thinks Kobe can do no wrong. Neither I nor Chris fit that category as evidenced by our small but important concessions in the argument.It was Paulsen that broke out the rehab angle on me. I was and will always be genuinely concerned when people drag the bottom of the river when trying to bolster their arguments. I actually think Paulsen has some good points at times but his approach sometimes reminds me of Captain Ahab in Moby Dick which is tragic.I respect Paulsen as a person but I do not respect the below the belt parts of his argument.Nothing personal. That is all.
Joe,
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion and we all have different takes on different views.
In this instance, I don’t think John went below the belt to make his arguments. He’s stating that Kobe’s alleged rape scandal and “ring bribe” are two reasons why a good portion of the public dislikes him. I think those two instances are relevant to the point he’s trying to make in why some people are “Kobe haters.”
Personally, I’m neither a Kobe defender or hater. But I can certainly see why some people choose not to root for him based on his past mistakes. The point is that John isn’t hammering Kobe because of those mistakes (or dragging the bottom of the river to make an argument), he’s making a point that some choose not to root for the guy because of some of his character flaws.
Either way, I think these statements: “feeble arguments”, “a waste of time with such as Paulsen”, “the bottom of the barrel is scraped”, “so bitter”, “When we look in the sewers for our logic only the putrid stench remains.”, “venom laced tirades”, “not living in the intellectual gutter”…are personal whether or you specifically addressed John in every one of them, or went at it in a round-about way.
Wow, I thought my and John’s comments were so long nobody would ever bother to read them — I didn’t think it would turn into this.
Frankly when it comes to polarizing figures, in sports at least, it’s never worth getting vicious at all. Kobe, like A-Rod, have both made poor and bad choices in their careers, but Kobe at least will be recognized as one of the best athletes of his time without any asterisk. My whole point was to stress that Kobe should not be viewed with the same scorn as guys like A-Rod and Barry Bonds.
Athlete’s personalities should never make one feel angry, depressed, or combative. They’re off in their own world playing games we played when when were 4 feet tall, yet making millions of dollars. I don’t know what goes on in their heads that turn them into morons.
When it’s all said and done, all I care about is the show they put on on the field/court/rink, and their stats. That’s why steroids and baseball is so distressing — the stats are what support arguments in baseball nerd circles. As soon as steroids entered into the picture, it f’d everything up.
As far as Kobe goes, I like the guy because he’s one of the best basketball players of all time, plays for my team, and dealt with more public and private scrutiny than any athlete in recent memory and still won a championship. I admire him for that.
The worst kinds of athletes are the cheaters, and the worst kinds of people are those purposely try to hurt others. As far as I know, Kobe doesn’t fit into either category.
Calling someone a “hater” is really just a refusal and/or inability to acknowledge their argument. If I argue (as I believe) that Bryant isn’t yet one of the top ten players in NBA history, or that LeBron James is clearly and without question the best player in the league now (even sans Larry O’Brien Trophy), I’m likely to have my head chewed off by any number of Laker fans. It doesn’t mean they’re right.
And when it comes to revisionist history, I’m still not on board with everyone who insists that this was what would make or break Bryant’s career – winning one as The Guy. Pardon my brashness, but I’ve no need to think that the success or failure of a guy’s whole career may be based on one best-of-seven series. Every great player’s career and legacy are defined in part by its snapshots – I understand this. But every career and legacy is far, far more than snapshots.